Posts by moggy lover

27

What biblical support is there for the belief that a creative day is 7000 years long?

by JWB in

what biblical support is there for the belief that a creative day is 7000 years long?.

as most folks here are probably well aware, the wts teaches that humankind has lived for about 6,000 years and that there will be a 1,000 year reign of christ to restore humans to perfection.

they teach that the end of 'this old system' must be coming very soon since everything must fit into a 7000 year 'creative day'.

moggy lover

It is true that the Watchtower were not the first to come up with the 7,000 year creation-day theory, but they were the most strident and held on to the teaching for several years. They have never formally retracted the teaching, but have made more cautionary statements over the years. For instance, the original "[Human] Reasoning on the Scriptures" book accepted this teaching, but the revised edition, published in 1989 merely mentions the time as being "several thousand years in length".

As other posters have mentioned, the Watchtower no longer makes any reference to this teaching, which they once held with such passionate vigour. Basically, the "[human] reasoning" behind this teaching was:

1. Every one one of the six creative days are said to begin and end, using the Hebraic expression, the "evening and the morning was....". But no such expression is used with the seventh day. Therefore the only "reasonable" conclusion is that the seventh day did not end during the time of the Bible record.

[Answer: Most Evangelical Christians will disagree. This is not the only "reasonable" conclusion to draw. Because the seventh day was to be a day of special significance in Jewish theological perception, its end was not signified by the expression common to the other days. Its end was signified by the expression "And God rested on the seventh day...". Despite the convoluted way Franz "translated" this phrase implying a present continuous structure, the Hebrew perfect as used here is a past tense, hence a completed action, not a continuing one.]

2. The Seventh day must be still continuing because Hebs:4:4-6 speaks of Gods "rest day" being in operation at this time.

[Answer: Again Evangelicals will disagree. This is not talking of the Seventh creation "day" - since "day" is not used here. It is talking of God's Rest, not His rest "day". The writer of Hebrews is discussing how we enjoy security or rest by believing in Christ. God's rest, since Calvary has been to gather believers in Christ who can have the security of belief and freedom from the fear of death. They do this by entering God's rest. This is contrasted with the Exodus generation who lacked such belief.]

3. Since we "know" that Adam was created in in 4026 BC, more than six thousand years of human history has passed. [6037 years to be precise] So we must be periously close to the end. It is necessary then to accept the GB and all its pronouncements and hasten to join the Organization to survive into the New World.

[Answer: There is no answer. Since 1889, when the Watchtower first published a date for Adam's creation, [4128 BC] it has had the need to correct this date five further times:

1.1896: 4129.

2.1943: 4028

3.1944: 4026

4.1953: 4025

5. 1963: 4026]

16

Does the Watchtower still print the "Kingdom Interlinear Translation" book?

by Resistance is Futile in

jw
friends

it was last updated in 1985. does the watchtower still print it?

could a jw place an order for one at the kingdom hall?.

moggy lover

It is my understanding that no, they do not print this book anymore. There was only one print run of 800,000 copies and that was in 1985. There may be some lying around and it may be possible to order one through a local KH if you know someone.

The next best thing is to download a copy from the Internet. I believe these are still available.

8

JWN Field Service Reports Please

by usualusername in

jw
friends

the problem with jwn members and apostates is that everybody is doing there own thing.. .

in order for us to bring down this cult we need to get more organised.. .

as such i willingly volunteer to collect field services reports from you all:.

moggy lover

I don't have kids, but how many hours do I get for feeding the hungriest cat in Christendom?

9

Good News From God-Text!

by Atlantis in

(part 1.

read proverbs 29:25; revelation 14:6, 7.. (part 2.

) is the good news really from god?1.

moggy lover

Thanks Big A, truly ironic that we get this meat in due season straight from the oven, even before the rest of the slumbering dwarfs!

The brochure seems to be a sort of catechism to teach children. If this is for adults then my estimation of the intellectual capacity of the the average Watchtower follower just slipped several notches.

Thanks again, wonderful as usual.

10

the NEW Zealand Bethel is up for sale..?

by zeb in

so where will the money from the sale go?

to support the bros and sisters who have worked so,long at the bethel?

this is to be doubted..

moggy lover

That IS a big surprise. When was this announced?

26

Who has "reverted back to apostate [Christian] doctrines"

by biometrics in

if you were a jehovah's witness have you "reverted right back to the apostate doctrines that commentaries by christendom"?.

"from time to time, there have arisen from among the ranks of jehovah's people those who, like the original satan, have adopted an independent, faultfinding attitude...they say that it is sufficient to read the bible exclusively, either alone or in small groups at home.

but, strangely, through such 'bible reading,' they have reverted right back to the apostate doctrines that commentaries by christendom's clergy were teaching 100 years ago...".

moggy lover

Gulp! Me. [Or is it "I"?] Do I get to mount the scaffold now, or do I get a last meal?

Put me down as one of them pesky Baptists.

29

Breaking the Watchtower into Two Opossing Camps, Possible?

by Scott77 in

is there a possibility that the watchtower will be split into two opposing camps at sometime in the foreseeable future?

judging from the past, do we envisage such a scenario happening before our eyes?.

scott77.

moggy lover

I think that the way we are addressing the issue is somewhat out of sync with what Scott 77 is thinking about.

We have been discussing groups that broke away from the WTS, leaving the original system working intact and legally in control of the existing framework that makes up the WTS mechanism. This has happened before and doubtless will happen again. But what is intriguing to contemplate, as Scott 77 does, is whether the actual WTS system collapses into itself! What then will happen to the legal instrumentality that once constituted this unified belief system?

With no actual control body existing, or with what is existing fractured into equally hostile groups, and with each group insisting that the others have seceded, but with no one group in control of everything, it would involve much unseemly and unchristian squabbling, with the different groups fighting over what was once a united form of patronage. Suppose one group, calling itself the "True Watchtower Bible and Tract Society" made a grab for the printing facilities worldwide, while another, calling itself the "Redeemed WBTS" grabbed the real estate, and yet another grasped the finances, but failed to take that which is still held by the US Stock Exchange, and so on, it would leave a right royal stew.

This is not so fanciful an idea to believe, since it has happened before. When HW Armstrong, inventor and Superintent of the World Wide Church of God died, His doctrinal and financial empire was split, like a mutated atomic explosion, and its operating structure was divided into various groups each claiming to be the true inheritor of the HWA legacy.

Actually, for those who receive Randy Watters [Dogpatch] monthly E-Newsletter, he did discuss something like this some months ago. It was speculated that the groups would initially be split more along personal lines than theological. The doctrinal differences would emerge over time as this division evolved. Finding it impossible to get along with each other, the various members of the secretive leadership, mutually agree to divide the lucrative pie among themselves, each then going their separate ways.

And starting all over again.

Whether so drastic a possibility occurs is something we will have to wait and see.

Sic transit gloria.

11

Is the Memorial on Nisan 14 after sundown in Israel or whatever country it is held in?

by sinis in

i can't remember.

don't really care, just something that popped up in my head.

to all the people who are going, i feel sorry for you... ;) i have not set foot in a kh in years!!

moggy lover

Good post, Leolaia, thanks. I could never get the hang of the "Between the evenings" bit.

11

Is the Memorial on Nisan 14 after sundown in Israel or whatever country it is held in?

by sinis in

i can't remember.

don't really care, just something that popped up in my head.

to all the people who are going, i feel sorry for you... ;) i have not set foot in a kh in years!!

moggy lover

You have put your finger on an interesting and perplexing problem which concerns the interpreting of the one text in the OT which nails the time of the Passover. Is it to be observed on the 14th evening of Nisan, or the 15th?

The problem text is Lev 23:5, and the ambiguous reference to "between the evenings". Which evenings? Does it mean the evening of the 14th of Nisan when the Passover lamb is to be eaten [as the Watchtower proposes]? If it is so, then the lamb would have had to killed on the afternoon of the previous day, ie, Nisan 13.

Or does it mean the evening of Nisan 15th? If it does, it must mean that the Passover lamb, would then have to be killed on the afternoon of the 14th and eaten on the evening of the 15th.

The answer is both obtuse and prolix, and remains virtually incomprehensible, especially to someone only marginally interested in the subject. Suffice it to say that Israel, as do most Jews all over the world, eat the Passover lamb on the evening of 15th Nisan, the day [or rather, evening] after that of the Memorial observance of the Watchtower and its followers.

3

Grace vs. Undeserved Kindness

by bats in the belfry in

just doing some research on the wt lib cd - - wow, the balls these people have is just unbearable.. .

is not the new world translation of the christian greek scriptures verbose, for instance, in using catches sight of for sees at 1 john 5:16 and undeserved kindness for grace?j.

s., united states.. .

moggy lover

It is hard to assess the correctness of the NW"T" here in the two cases you cited. Verbosity was a characteristic of Frederick Franz, the chief architect of this [per]version of Scripture. It has in fact been estimated that the Watchtower Bible is almost one third larger than other English language translations. [Compare Ro 13:1 where the NW"T" uses 30 words to say the same thing that NSAB does in 25]

In 1 Jo 5:16, the word "horaw" is used in the aorist tense, and in the subjunctive mood. The main thrust of the subjunctive is to indicate that the action of the verb is possible, depending on contextual nuances, [hence our English "might" "should" "could" etc], but in main clauses or in purpose clauses, then the action does take on a more definite nuance. Thus in the aor subj, the emphasis should be on the mood of the verb, rather than the punctiliar or single action usage.

The same construction as used at 1 Jo 15:16 occurs 4 other times, and in NONE of these has the NW"T" used the expression "catch sight of".

At Lu 2:26, the aor subj is "translated" as a perfect - "had seen"

At Lu 19:4 - it is made into an infinitive in the English "to see"

At Jo 8:56 it is made into a participle, "seeing" and

At 1 Cor 8:10 is is "translated" as it should, that is, a subjunctive - "Should see"

Compare the KIT translations at each of these verses.

I think the point that John is making at 1 Jon 5:16 is that a possibility may occur, when a disciple could, or might see his brother sinning, in which case he need do something...

As far as ""undeserved kindness" is concerned, it is not necessarily wrong, but may not capture the entire range of meaning inherent in the word. It does not necessarily point to God's "kindness" or even that it is "undeserved". It is a word of blessing based on the immutable characteristic of God's love. Hence it is better translated as "favour", and God's favour is not undeserved so much as it is unmerited, or unearned. We cannot earn the favour or blessing of God, it is a free gift. Hence if one feels the need to unpack the term "Grace" which is perfectly adequate to express the Greek, then "unmerited favour" is probably better.

I rather suspect, however, that Franz's need to use "undeserved kindness" was not so much to pay attention to "accuracy" as it was a result of his own personal prejudice. It is a word much favoured by Evangelicals, whom Franz despised, hence his "purer" alternative.